I mean, we all hear about people thinking what they think only because the people around them think it too. So how do you avoid doing that?
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IMHO by traveling. In my case I travelled a lot for work and was introduced to new places, people, and cultures (mostly micro cultures). Seeing how things are different from your local area gives perspective.
To a degree it’s just reflexive, a knee-jerk reaction to being told things without proper explanation. I struggled with that since I was very young. People told me what to do, what to think, how to feel, and I tried to obey but the stress of that obedience in the face of reason would always eventually end in meltdowns and by the time I was a teenager I was so worn down from that that I could barely function as a human being.
I was within a few years of twenty (pretty bad with dates) when the world showed me I had permission to think independently. There was a perceived familial obligation that I was too hurt to weather, an invitation to visit a relative that I found annoying. You’re told that you’re supposed to love your family, all of it, no matter how physically and emotionally detached they are from your life. But the act of trying to love a stranger that you can’t stand the company of and who cannot stand your company in turn, themselves only really trying out of this same sense of obligation that society pushes on them, there’s nothing in that but stress for all involved. And then you feel like a failure as a result, because you stressed them out and you’re supposed to be making them happy. It was a very small thing being asked of me and something I had always capable of weathering on previous occasions but this time I was too weak from the rest of life and, shamefully, I politely declined. I was kicking myself for the next hour, until somebody actually close to me caught me alone for a moment and praised that show of strength.
In my mind, she had always been stronger than me because she was better able to meet expectations. In that moment I learned that, in her mind, she was weak because she was unable to stand up for her own mental health needs and that I had just surpassed her by doing this. That realization changed my life. I let go of this obedience that my bones had always told me was wrong. Other people wanting something doesn’t mean I have to want it, other people feeling something doesn’t mean I have to feel it, other people doing something doesn’t mean I have to do it. Success at attempting all those things is exactly the same amount of suffering as failure, the very same action is both strong and weak. There’s no winning that game. Neither of us felt what we were supposed to feel and neither of us would be happy in the other’s shoes.
Society tells you that disobedience is arrogance, selfishness, but I’m a better person that I was before it. It made me more humble because I no longer felt that I was supposed to be right, now I want to be right and that means learning where I’m wrong. It made me more generous because I no longer felt that I was supposed to be good, now I want to be helpful because helping people feels good to do. It made me happier because I no longer felt that I was supposed to be happy, and now any instances of unhappiness don’t cause me the shame that negates future happiness. And it made me more tolerant because, fuck, I’m not about to start enforcing arbitrary standards on people when arbitrary standards caused me so much harm in the first place.
Now that there’s not an internal struggle against prescriptive conformity in the way, I’m freer than I ever was to do most of the same things everyone wanted me to do in the first place while also being able to set boundaries about those few things I know would be harmful to do.
It’s not at all frictionless to think for yourself, mind. People can be frustrated when you ask more justification of them than others do. If they’re doing what they’re told is right, saying what they’re told is right, believing what they’re told is right, it can feel threatening to ask them how any or all of that is right when, deep down, all they’re doing is playing their assigned role because they never had your epiphany. And the boundaries you set can also be at odds with the genuinely felt desires of those you care about because sometimes peoples’ desires are simply incompatible.
But that friction is nothing next to the cumulative psychic weight of total obedience. Mutual somewhat-grudging acceptance of each others’ limits is better than any one person’s permanent unhappiness.
In terms of actionable advice: follow your logic, follow your feelings, follow observable reality. Recognize it as a red flag when people discourage you from that, and recognize the importance of hearing out people who are talking through their own logic and feelings and observations and scrutinizing each other.
There’s endless arguments about everything if you look for them. My advice is to really consider what you feel to be your “guiding principles” and use them to well, guide you. This gives you a kind of framework to evaluate arguments you encounter, and can keep you grounded when you might otherwise get overwhelmed.
ADHD. My mind is racing at all times for my entire life no matter what. Probably every person with ADHD ends up thinking more than a few things which are completely original because the sheer volume of involuntary thoughts which are so cognitively specific to that person and nonsense to everyone else.
Why would you want to think independently? I am a collective thinker. I ask other people their opinions and discuss it with them. That’s how I learn and form my own opinions, and how you end up with good solutions to problems. You don’t have enough time to form good opinions on lots of topics, but you have time to curate your sources and who you discuss things with. You should aim for a good signal/noise ratio.
Thinking independently / being a free thinker is overrated in my opinion. A somewhat elitist way of describing oneself. “Not being a sheep” etc.
Identify your core values, sensible opinions can be derived from those. If there is a mismatch between your derived opinion based on one of your core values, then maybe you have to reconsider your core values. The best way to discover those is through discussion with others.
Being truly curious and discussing openly with others is one of the great joys of socializing. It can be done with people from all parts of the political spectrum. It’s much more enjoyable than small talk.
Well, you answered your own question 3 times. Consider the nature of that kind of conversation.
In a nutshell, thinking coarsens as it passes hand to hand. First-hand is finest. Fourth-hand is a crude and nigh-solipsistic.
So that’s one argument for independent thought.
I disagree. I believe that in the right hands it sharpens as it passes. If it does not, then you might need to change the way you talk to others in order to get there.
There are many times I have had thoughts that are principally correct or ideologically true to my beliefs, but that has been more moderated as I have heard the opinions and thoughts of others.
In a perfect world my values would be shared by everyone and the principles I hold would be shared amongst everyone. But we live in a world of compromise, and we can not fight every fight. And also, I am not infallible, my core beliefs are probably somewhat wrong.
Take the very current situation with free speech. I used to have a lot stronger opinion in support of absolute free speech, now I am more reserved. Principally I believe in absolute free speech still, but that won’t work in a non-perfect world
Consider what is exchanged when we speak. We exchange symbols with associated meaning.
The symbols, those are clear enough, but the meaning, that’s assumed.
So there is that large assumption that I mean what you mean.
With dead-common subjects it’s a safe assumption. With strange subjects the assumption might prove false. Most subjects will fall in the middle somewhere. The assumption will, to some degree, fail. But we will probably pretend that it didn’t or simply neglect to consider the possibility.
So there is an unrecognized degree of failure to convey meaning there. A kind of noise.
And that noise compounds every time the words pass from person to person.
By being autistic
That’s the best way
By constantly asking “why”. Certainly, by asking why something is popular and ponder that for as long as needed until you come to a reasonable conclusion.
You may never conclude why some things are the way they are but by keeping this in mind, you’ll pick up the habit of thinking independently.
Actually, one of the things I’m always wondering is how I became an independent thinker. I have a hard time understanding how so many people are so gullible and what I can do to help them.
I can’t help by attributing my independent thinking to being somewhat isolated and poor as a child. I’m self sufficient and reject most things that are popular.
I also worked in advertising as a graphic artist for a few years. It became apparent that I am not cut out for thinking like everyone else. Advertising still annoys the heck out of me.
I’m always wondering is how I became an independent thinker. I have a hard time understanding how so many people are so gullible
You may not think this way, but I’ll comment just in case: Don’t fall into the trap of thinking you are too smart to fall for a lie. The smartest people in the world have blind spots, and only the blind think they have none.
You’re absolutely right. It can be difficult navigating this world, even with best intentions and sharpest of minds.
There is the theory that we feel emotions first and then we think only to justify the emotion.
This would imply that it isn’t the thinking that needs to be managed but the emotions.
We’re human beings, not machines. Emotions are good, actually.
Emotions aren’t good (or bad). They’re often like a heuristic. Fast but inaccurate. This is great when it’s like “a bear wandered into the house” and emotions say “RUN” and cold logic would be like “what? Why? How?” until you get mauled. It’s not good when it’s like “climate change makes me feel bad so I don’t believe in it”
heuristic
That’s a very fancy word, and I’m sure you’re proud of using it.
Now can you tell me how this word has importance in your everyday life?
It comes up in software development sometimes, which is my day to day. It also is useful for any “fast but inaccurate approach” scenario, which comes up sometimes.
I wouldn’t say I’m proud of using it. It was already in my lexicon. (So was “lexicon”)
Here’s an article about them https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-heuristic-2795235
Why do you ask?
Although some feelings are malleable through thinking, but yeah, others come from (and can only be worked by) different places (including the health of our body).
Deliberately expose yourself to information and opinions outside your bubble.
But don’t consider that maybe the migrants really are the biggest problem just because so many others are convinced.
Learn, understand, challenge, repeat.
Learn as much as you can about all sorts of topics, even if you don’t have specific plans for those topics
Learn enough that you don’t just know the facts, but that you actually understand why things are the way they are. You should be able to predict things you haven’t yet learned if you understand the concepts. If you don’t understand something yet, keep learning.
Learn your fundamentals: language skills, math, logic, statistics, the science of research, history, politics, basic psychology, and the physics of whatever realm you’re operating in (meaning that in today’s day and age, you should learn about both real-world physics and about how information flows on the Internet).
A lot of people don’t know how to teach themselves, so it’s probably important to point out that learning to do so effectively is a big part of thinking for yourself. Learning how information is presented, as well as what’s often left unsaid, is important. Learn how to read graphs and charts and statistics. Improve your information literacy: Learn how to find credible sources, how to judge the credibility of a source, and what “credible” actually means. It doesn’t mean infallible.
As a general rule, don’t accept a fact until you have multiple credible confirmations of it. That might not be possible, but when information comes from untrustworthy sources, remember that. Learn the difference between something that you’ve learned and accepted and something that you’ve just heard on social media a few dozen times. This is easier when you have an understanding of what you’re learning. True things fit in better with other true things.
Don’t assume things are false just because the source isn’t credible, either. Just do extra research to verify. Do your own experiments to confirm, if possible.
Sometimes you’ll realize something you’ve accepted might be wrong, possibly because it conflicts with something else that you learned. When facts don’t add up, challenge them. You’re not infallible. Replacing a fact you accepted long ago isn’t a failure; it’s a victory. Many people are incapable of doing so.
Learn to distinguish between facts, inferences, theories, and opinions. (Note that established, accepted scientific theories often fall into the “fact” category.) Facts are verifiable. Inferences are based on facts; they’re evidence-based conclusions that can help to build theories. Theories are explanations, and they can be disproven but haven’t been proven (else they would be facts). Information presented as facts can be false. Theories and inferences can be poorly formed, even if the facts are sound (and especially when they are not). “Opinion” is a word people use to defend flawed theories. If the opinion isn’t a preference, there’s a good chance it isn’t an opinion at all and is just intentional misinformation. “You can’t argue with my opinion” isn’t applicable when the “opinion” is provably false - then it’s just a failed fact, inference, or theory. And even when it is an opinion, it can still be criticized.
Learn about logical fallacies. Even if you don’t call out the person using them, try to notice them in the wild, both by people you agree with and people you disagree with. But especially by people you agree with. Learn how to notice other ways people are misled.
I might add, “become comfortable with uncertainty”. Because nothing drowns you in a swamp of bullshit like an excessive need for certainty.
to add a more narrowed-down starting point, i recommend everyone to look into epistemology. much of this follows from there
Note that established, accepted scientific theories often fall into the “fact” category.
For example the Theory of Gravity.
Read books, it’s the poor people version of traveling to broaden your mind. Sometimes even more effective since some things cannot be experienced irl. They don’t need to be recent, the old classics are good. Think about the moral/ethics/philosophies you want to live your life on, then you can interpretate events according to those.
Pay attention to when people tell you what to think and be extra suspicious of that kind of behavior. Question everything. Trust but verify.
Now don’t fall into the trap of just being a contrarian. Just because everyone is telling you the same thing doesn’t mean it’s ALWAYS some big conspiracy. It could actually just be the right thing.
Basically just be curious and don’t form opinions purely based off people you look up to or admire.
I have a couple good rules of thumb.
What are the experts saying? Not the loud people, the experts. Incredible news would have them talking.
Would the reverse of an idea also be true? If the president is responsible for high gas prices, do people agree he’d be responsible for low ones?
Does the idea try to make me feel? If there’s clear emotional intent in a story, the facts are probably being shaped to fit the narrative.
Do I see evidence of the widespread problem here? Should I? I remember an article about a couple who flew short hops across the US, and they said at every stop the story was “things are horrible everywhere, we’re just lucky they’re good here.”
Do I hear people using the same talking points, but they get confused when you ask for details? Often this is a story made to make you feel, not think.
This is what helps me with that:
- A healthy amount of Scepticism is always good.
- Fact check any new information by yourself and make your own conclusion.
- Discuss your ideas with others and make questions (just like you are doing right now).
- Be open to be corrected if you’re wrong in something.
- NEVER assume you know everything you need to know about anything.
Not sure. What do you guys think?
